whitewolffandomcom-20200213-history
Talk:Hardestadt the Younger
Generation Transylvania Chronicles II is often misquoted when it comes to Hardestadt the Younger. The source never says that Hardestadt is a 6th gen vampire, it says he is a 5th gen. Here's the link to the quote from Transylvania Chronicles II page. 99 https://imgur.com/rpuAlGx . As you can see the quote is quite clear: Hardestadt is a 5th generation Vampire. Which is consistent with both Giovanni Chronicles II and III. The only element that differs is the embrace date. Pieterzoon's generation cannot be used to void such sources. Pieterzoon's generation is mentioned only in one source, the Clanbook Ventrue Revised, while Hardestadt's generation is confirmed by 3 different sources, published in different years. Either Pieterzoon's generation should be lower, either Hardestadt might not be Pieterzoon's true sire. :There is no question that Jan Pieterzoon is Hardestadt's direct childe, he has been shown as such in both in-character and off-character sources, and that pretty much wipes out the possibility of Hardestadt the Younger being a 5th generation vampire like his Elder. Early books, such as the first Giovanni Chronicles and Transylvania Chronicles have been widely known to make such mistakes, and that has been already covered by the trivia section. Even if you take your time to compare the Transylvania Chronicles and the Giovanni Chronicles sources, you'll notice that in that tiny amount of text there's also conflicting information, for they cannot even agree on the year of his embrace, meaning that they are not the most reliable source (which gives credence to the timeline mistake hypothesis). Russel Hammond (talk) 16:08, October 16, 2018 (UTC) ::The only off-character source that states that Jan Pieterzoon is Hardestadt's direct childe is Clanbook Ventrue Revised, which is one source against three different sourcebook. As such the only off-characters source is the entry "Sire" in the sheet at page 100 of the clanbook. Choosing to validate this single entry against three of Hardestadt is pretty much arbitrary. Besides Pieterzoon's entry in the clanbook doesn't say anything about his embrace or his history or his human life, which is part of the main theme of the character who has been shown subject to powerful memory blocks imposed on him by his sire. At the current state of the metaplot we simply do not know anything about Jan past, and what we may know might be false; since the Clan Novel Ventrue the writers decided that Jan's memories are unreliable and should be taken with a grain of salt. The existence of such mind blocks and memory alterations has been confirmed by later entries and also by BJD. Given the fact that the writers have chosen to made Jan Pieterzoon an unreliable narrator and since no character in the setting besides Jan ever gives the proof that Jan is Hardestadt's childe (we know of no brood mate or any vampire who knew him before he became the "Voice of Hardestadt"). Aside from that the only conflicting information in Giovanni Chronicles and Transylvania Chronicles is the embrace date, which is an element that often change in the pubblication of Vampire. For istance Menele had two different embrace date in the Chicago sourcebook 1 and 2nd edition. So while we can say that his embrace date is controversial, at the time there are no controversial source on Hardestadt's generation, we have three entries, from three different years, three different authors and three different sourcebook that Hardestadt is a 5th generation ventrue. :::Early books from Giovanni Chronicles and Transylvania Chronicles are widely known to mess up characters generations (we have seen examples of this in the likes of Durga Syn, Dracula, Lambach, Tabak and many others). The contradicting information presented by the Giovanni Chronicles sources and Transylvania Chronicles should act as a cautionary tale, indicating that the authors were not on the same page and that the information is unreliable at best. On other hand, Jan Pieterzoon's lineage has been never put into question, not ever, not by a single source. And, by analizing Hardestadt the Elder's lineage, we can conclude that the Elder was in fact a 5th generation, and that means that the Younger ought to be a 6th generation unless he managed to committ diablerie upon another powerful vampire (which is possible). However, apart from your wild speculation, his childe's generation pretty much buried that hypothesis. But don't get me wrong, you're entitled to write a speculation section at Jan's profile raising doubts over his lineage, just remember that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and if you fail to provide credible sources to back up those claims the section will be deleted. In any case, the Trivia section has been altered to convey all this information, giving the reader a chance to make up her own mind about the subject. PS: remember to always sign your comments with four tildes when using talk pages. Russel Hammond (talk) 17:36, October 16, 2018 (UTC)